Ben Garland’s decision – try to make the NFL or enter pilot training – was something that has been weighing on his mind for months. When the former Air Force nose tackle was in training camp with the Denver Broncos last August, his decision even got some national attention.
Garland won’t enter pilot training for the Air Force. He has received his reclassification to public affairs and is assigned to the academy’s athletic department, spokesman Troy Garnhart said. He is currently an instructor in the physical education department, one of 11 instructors responsible for teaching physical education classes, fitness testing and evaluations. There are 31 military personnel, ranging from second lieutenant to colonel, in the physical education department, Garnhart said. That reclassification will allow him to continue pursuing his dream of playing in the NFL with the Broncos, who kept him on the military/reserve list last season.
Garland’s assignment is for three years and his next stop will be in public affairs, which is his career field, but in a year he can request to the Department of Defense to have the final three years of his military commitment become six years of reserve duty, which is allowed if he has a signed pro contract. Chad Hall did that last year, and played last season with the NFL’s Philadelphia Eagles.
I will try to catch up with Garland today to get his thoughts on what had to be a difficult decision between two good options.
2LT Garland is a good example of why none of the military academies should compete in big time college sports. I have nothing against this kid personally, but I paid for his education because the USAF needs pilots and leaders, not so big kids can prep for the NFL.
Major intercollegiate sports do nothing for the cadets that good intramural competition can’t do. All three academies should concentrate on their military missions.
I know why the academies have big time sports: so general-grade officers can relive their youth and local fans have another team to roof for.
“Integrity, service before self….”
Yeah. Right. Got it.
We pay for his education and this is how we’re thanked?
ungrateful %&^%&.
“We pay for his education and this is how we’re thanked?”
Oh my …
He is still going to serve for another year in the actives, and serve 6 years in the reserves which will save taxpayers money. Another service member who wants to be a pilot and just missed will get a well deserved second chance. He will also do a hell of alot promoting and recruiting the air force and academy. this not a terrivle thing.
Give him a break. I am sure he agonized over this decision. We all have a time in our life when we have to choose, and you will have to give up something that is important to us. He is not walking completely away from his duty. He still has a year left and then will be on 6 month of reserve duty.
If you don’t like it, blame the system, not the kid.
I for one am ok with this, so long as the athlete remains in the reserves and contributes in a manner that benefits the AF and USAFA. Chad Hennings used his notoriety to be a vocal advocate for the Academy for years. He undoubtedly influenced many students to consider and attend USAFA who otherwise would not have even thought about it. (In fact Chad even worked directly for the AFA Admissions Department for years.)
David Robinson did the same for USNA, on an even larger, more visible scale.
Hopefully, the AF will be able to exploit the rare talents of Hall and Garland in a similar way. If so, they’ll bring more value to the AF as a pro athlete serving in the reserves than they would by serving 5 years active duty.
If the AF fails to leverage their notoriety, then I agree, it doesn’t make sense.
Disgree strongly that the Academies shouldn’t field D1 athletic teams. You want military officers with world class talents and competitive edge — scholarship, leadership, and yes, athletics. Why would you offer no path for a D1 caliber athlete to become a military officer? In reality only 1-2% of them will go pro. The rest take those talents and capabilities and apply to them careers on active duty.
What did he do wrong? Are you yelling at the other 400-500 guys/gals in his class that didn’t choose to go to pilot training, rather chose to go into public affairs at some base, or maintenance, or intelligence, or chaplain service, or hospital managament, personnel administration, legal ‘JAG’ duty, instructor at the Academy in some other field, etc….whatever.
He has a commitment the same as his peers.
‘IF’ at some point in time he gets the opportunity to go to the NFL he can ‘then’ apply to the Secretary of Defense to shorten his active duty and go to reserves (as discussed in the article above)…as does his peers in any field. ‘Then’ at the discretion of the Dept of the Air Force he will/will not be granted the opportunity. If he does get it and you are still angered, then the anger goes toward the Secretary of the AF who make the final decision, not on the individual for asking.
Most responding above have ‘no clue’ and think he is not ‘serving his country or not paying his due.
Also note: Everyone that wants a pilot slot upon graduation from the Academy does not get one (slots are limited)…so a pilot slot not filled by him will not go vacant…it will be filled by someone that ‘wants’ it.
Always know the full situation and background before you start firing arrows…you just might his an innocent bystander.
Sorry, but “serving” as a PE officer doesn’t really count as military service.
I’m still waiting for someone from the USAFA contingent to give me a single example of a USNA grad who spent >50% of his active duty service obligation assigned to USNA or NAPS as an athletic coach.
“Are you yelling at the other 400-500 guys/gals in his class that didn’t choose to go to pilot training, rather chose to go into public affairs at some base, or maintenance, or intelligence, or chaplain service, or hospital managament, personnel administration, legal ‘JAG’ duty, instructor at the Academy in some other field, etc….whatever. ”
No. Well, maybe the other instructors if that’s all they do after they graduate.
“…his next stop will be in public affairs, which is his career field.”
How many people “serve” in the Air Force that don’t fly a jet? Every position in the Air Force is important, whether in the air or at the base.
Do your homework and read up on Ben before passing judgement, and you will find that this was not an easy decision at all for him.
Once again, wasted money at USAFA…..Garland is nowhere near theofficers that Hennings and Robinson were….first off, they wore the uniform and were within the standards and fitness, secondly Hennings deployed and did all his time. Garland will never put on the uniform and I guarentee you that he not within the AF standards for fitness, he is overweight, training for the NFL, which is NOT his primary job!! The AF just showed agin how they discriminate. Working in the PE dept is a joke !!! Why doesnt the Gazette do a story on him find out what he really does on a daily basis and if he is within standards, ie waist size and PT scores!!! Lt Garland you are in the real AF now, your not a Cadet anymore, you are an officer, which means that AF Instructions, not Cadet policies, apply to you !!
My point is that familes cant afford to send their kids to college, he didnt pay a dime for his education and cant even pay back what he owes to the AF.
You guys have no clue. YES…many cadets at the AF Academy choose not to go into pilot training and select those other fields….just like many at the ‘Navy’ do not choose to go to pilot training, subs, etc. There are a variety of career fields to choose from and they are all required by the AF.
It’s not just a ‘PE’ instructor…it’s an ‘instructor’ position and have other associated duties. And I don’t ‘care’ about Navy kids as I don’t know….but I am sure that everyone one of those kids have to make decisions and they are not all ‘on the tip of the spear’.
BTW…here’s (scroll down) some Navy ‘grads’ that went into ‘coaching’ after their graduating 2009… http://www.usna.edu/NAPS/napsAthleticsBios.htm
“I’m still waiting for someone from the USAFA contingent to give me a single example of a USNA grad who spent >50% of his active duty service obligation assigned to USNA or NAPS as an athletic coach.”
Ah . . . I get it now. Any time you see a negative, bitter comment on this blog, there’s at least a 50% chance there’s a Navy fan behind it.
I’m still waiting from someone from the USNA contingent to offer a single reason why they’re on a USAFA sports blog offering bitter complaints about AF program/athletes/policies. I mean, don’t you have anything better to do with your time that taking shots at a sister service academy? You NEVER see this sort of thing from West Pointers . . . those guys seem to have class.
As a USAFA grad, I’ve always cheered for West Point/Annapolis whenever they’re not playing us. Will still do so for West Point, but the classless behavior of Navy fans makes it harder and harder to be a fan of Annapolis.
Can the Navy guys figure out what happened during Kyle Eckel’s stellar career before they start taking shots at our guys..? Best of luck to Ben.
I think many of you missed the six year obligation in the Air Force Reserves. Ben is not doing anything differently than many, many before him. Please tell me why he is so different than those who choose to (as shown below from the Air Force Reserve website) “pursue college or other educational and civilian opportunities.” Any person in the Air Force Reserves can be called to duty at any time. Doesn’t sound like he is not “paying back.”
The Air Force Reserve is a component of the Regular Air Force. It has most of the same job specialties, its members wear the same uniforms, hold the same ranks, and share a common culture. However, Air Force Reserve members serve on a part-time basis rather than full-time. Reservists may earn less money and have somewhat fewer benefits than Active Duty, but they are able to stay in their local communities (aren’t required to move in order to serve), and they have a lot more free time to pursue college or other educational and civilian opportunities.
rjp, there’s a difference between a 6-8 month TAD as a coach before going to flight school/nuke school/Quantico vs. doing a 3 year tour as a coach or public affairs officer at the Academy. I can’t speak for those grads on that link that went Navy, but a quick search of the USMC global list shows that the three 2ndLts on there are now with operational units, so that coach roster is out of date.
MKL, my opinion is that the service academies shouldn’t exist to produce coaches or officers who otherwise don’t ever go on to serve in operational units of some sort.
BW77, at least Kyle Eckel served some time in an operational command (i.e. aboard a ship) in his career. He got the boot for not living up to the Navy’s standards–has a USAFA grad ever been booted before completing their service obligation? My guess is yes.
“I think many of you missed the six year obligation in the Air Force Reserves. Ben is not doing anything differently than many, many before him. Please tell me why he is so different than those who choose to (as shown below from the Air Force Reserve website) “pursue college or other educational and civilian opportunities.” Any person in the Air Force Reserves can be called to duty at any time. Doesn’t sound like he is not “paying back.””
Called up to do what? Teach PE? That’s why he’s so different. He won’t be trained to do anything that the Reserves would actually need.
What about these people?
“There are 31 military personnel, ranging from second lieutenant to colonel, in the physical education department.” Is it different because they will stay in the physical education department and they will not “pursue college or other educational and civilian opportunities?” They will “just “stay in the Air Force to teach PE. Is the money you “wasted” on them, different than the money you “wasted” on Ben?
No pissing contest between service academies please….the point we are making is that in this economy, the amount of money wasted on Ben to teach PE is crazy. He will never put a uniform on, deploy, or even be recalled for an exercise, which is unacceptable as a member of the military. There are people being kicked out of the AF for weight problems, and this guy is getting a “waiver” for his next career…..the last time I checked the AF is he primary job and getting paid for it too!!
KMC…you are right…instead of a 2Lt (O-1) at $xxx then we can put a 1Lt or Capt in that billet at $xxxx+$yyyyy. ….or should we hire a civilian for $xxxxx+$zzzzzz…. What is your point? I do not understand. They are not ‘making’ a billet in this situation, rather filling an existing billet that some officer must fill. PLEASE explain the difference along with you disdain?
Are you fools using your brains? Ben Garland is the best recruiting tool in the United States Air Force. You pansies who think that he’s slacking, should go schedule a class or two in the AFA and see how well you do. You losers with your 110 I.Q.’s need to re-evaluate your so-called committment to your country. All of you who humped the bush in country can comment. The rest of you can put your heads up your butt once again and gasp for air.
I know this fine man personally, and know he is all about his country, his state, and the Air Force. The rest of you should all defect to Canada like you did in the sixties.
You jackwagons also should consider the fact that there is no money coming from the Broncos. He is an employee of the United States Government. On the Broncos website, he is on military reserve. A friend of mine spent his entire Vietnam War hitch typing requisitions for equipment. Does that make him any less a soldier? There is a need for all fields in the military, including P.E., Public Affairs, and playing defensive back for the Falcons. You probably all loved him when Troy Calhoun had him out there doing up-downs for three hours a day, or spending all of his off time in the weight room. That’s when he gained all of his so-called fat. Tap Ben in the pecs sometime, to see if his body mass is not to your liking.
He has been an inspiration to a group of kids playing football in Memorial Park, giving an inspirational speech at the end of a youth football game last fall. I was there, I heard it. How many Bronco’s would show up in the Springs to a sea of 11 year olds? Ben Garland.
He’s already more of a man than I will ever be, and a greater inpiration to future pilots and football players. You can’t discount the fact that recruiting is the game. You can be Army-tough, you can be all you can be. You can be the few, the proud, the Marines. You can go to Sea. The Air Force is always going to be a tough sell to manly men. So, here stands a 6 foot 5 guy with arms the size of your head, telling you that the Air Force needs men and women that are ready to rumble on the ground and in the sky. Some, maybe, can even play football and graduate to the pro’s.
Let Uncle Sam judge his worth, and put him where he’s best served for our military. Just like the fools who think you can go through life never having to defend you country and all we should see is peace time, you are sorely mistaken.
Get the point?
Eric – re: Navy coach who spent >50% of his active duty time as a coach…there is a thread about this on Scout Forums, AF, under Dogfights. Are you 04USNA302?
There is one Navy coach who spent more than 50% of his active duty time as a coach. Mick Yokitis.
He was a prep school coach, then a marine briefly then got a medical and went back to the prep school and is now at USNA as a civilian coach.
Not the same way AF does things, but Navy has one.
Navy has a couple ex-players wiho already have NFL contracts…just waiting for their service commitments to run out. I bet they didn’t accept pilot slots/commitments either.
I know Ben and have admired his work ethic for several years. He will be an inspiration to those around him. He will be good for the Bronco team members, good for the cadets around him at USAFA and really good for the AF in public relations in years to come. This young man is the kind we all hope to have in our military. Go Far Ben, we are all still cheering for you!
Why is no one complaining about the hockey player playing in a pro game tonight and tomorrow night. He is a senior, and its my understanding that they have not graduated yet and he is away from the academy. It appears that the problem is the NFL. There is not one comment posted on the hockey player story, but some of you want to blast Ben Garland. All academy football players have a desire to play at the next level. But only a few will get the opporunity. Let them have it, and let the academy benefit from it. In the past 5 years you have Chad Hall and Ben Garland. We are not loosing our senior classes. I think its very unfair to take the dream away from these young men. This dream get a lot of them thru the academy.
The DOD’s Waste Fraud and Abuse website:
http://www.dodig.mil/hotline/fwacompl.htm
The negative commenters here are apparently unaware of the Olympic athlete program that exists for all qualified officers and enlisted troops. The program has been around for decades. These athletes are diverted into active duty career fields that allow them to train for various Olympic events, precisely like the pro athlete candidates. And let’s not forget that during the 1930s, 40s and 50s the services all fielded pro level football and baseball teams comprised of personnel who were frequently diverted from their duties, or reassigned to more amenable duties, so that they could participate in service contests. The current pro sports diversion allowed under the so-called Robinson Rule is simply the latest incarnation of the US military’s promotion of sports within its ranks. And Lt. Garland should not be blamed in the slightest for taking advantage of whatever opportunities the service allows him. The AF giveth and the AF taketh away.
Ben Garland appears to have made a very tough choice: Fly in our United States Air Force, or take less prestigious duties for a no guarantee shot at the Broncos. He won’t promote to a Lieutenant Colonel, won’t strap an afterburner to his butt and claim the skies, and won’t go shoot down bogeys. Does that sound like he’s trying to dog it? Not in my eyes. If I had his choice, I’d go paint the skies red. He’s made his choice, and I respect him for being so interspective taking his time to make a decision. We could use some defense on the Broncos, I can hardly wait until his hitch is up. Less than 1% of human beings get to do either of these tasks placed before Ben Garland. Slap him on the back for being the man he is, rather than jawbone about what he did or didn’t do.
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Those who are saying that Ben Garland is somehow making a personal sacrifice to go play in the NFL instead of training for combat are insulting every serviceman in combat right now.
Yes Rob, you managed to find a guy who had his active duty cut short because of a medical condition. Congrats on your gotcha, even if you had to sacrifice intellectual honesty to get it. You also seem to have completely missed the point. I’m sure that other service academies do have people who would like to go to the NFL after their service obligations are up, just like any other academy graduate who moves on to another career at the end of his obligation. Nobody’s talking about that. What we are talking about is how that obligation is spent, and whether or not it is appropriate for taxpayers to pay for four years of a service academy education for someone who might never actually leave that service academy. The players you reference from the Naval Academy certainly are not spending their careers teaching PE.
And ChicagoZoomie, everyone is aware of the WCAP. The existence of one waste of money doesn’t justify other wastes of money.
USAFA = Pussies
Ben Garland is an honest, kind and hard working young man. He was presented with two prestigious career paths, both of which required years of dedication to become a reality, and he respectfully chose one.
The funny thing is, he is just one guy who made a choice for the next phase of his life and because the newspapers find it interesting, people think that gives them the right to judge and insult him. Nobody has that right.
Get the facts straight: If you read the interview he just passed his AF PT test and he is not getting a waiver. Pretty impressive for someone his size! He is currently working and serving time in an assignment given to him, as does any other officer. There are plenty of officers, including Academy grads that get cut loose early from the AF due to force shaping and they don’t get raked over the coals for it.
If you have a problem with the system and how your taxes are being spent then address your local government representative. Don’t be hateful and jealous of one young man’s success.
I applaud you, Ben Garland, and I wish you the best! Hold your head high above the ignorant criticism.
Yep Rob, that would be me, but as PPX pointed out these aren’t even close to similar situations. Yokitis did a 6 month TAD at NAPS (not a 2-3 year coaching “tour”) then went to The Basic School and was injured either while there or shortly thereafter. He was medically retired from the Marine Corps and is now coaching at Navy, which means he’s being paid by private funds, not taxpayer dollars.
PPX–Let me spell this out for you, and for others that don’t get this basic point: Your unsupported opinion that military athlete programs are a waste of money is belied by the fact that the people responsible for spending the dollars disagree, and have done so for decades. These programs withstand Congressional and IG review. The existence of this program and others like for more than a century indicates that it is you that are out of touch here–this is part of the traditional US military culture. If any of you have anything other than your own unsubstantiated opinion (based on an extremely narrow view of the world, apparently) that the military athletic programs are somehow a waste of taxpayer dollars–say an IG opinion, or something similar–let’s hear it. These programs are comparable to the military band programs, or the MWR, or the host of other things the services do that don’t involve direct aid for the ops people, but are considered important mission support features. I remember the head of USAF recruiting estimated the annual advertising value of Chad Hennings and his Dallas Cowboys-AF connection at several million dollars. A rational trade for an early release, especially since it’s easier to find pilots than NFL billboards for the services.
“I remember the head of USAF recruiting estimated the annual advertising value of Chad Hennings and his Dallas Cowboys-AF connection at several million dollars. A rational trade for an early release, especially since it’s easier to find pilots than NFL billboards for the services.”
Except Chad Hennings actually served, as an A-10 pilot in the Gulf War if I remember right, and as such was qualified to speak about what service life was really like.
Hey, if all we really need are “NFL billboards for the services” why don’t we just appoint Cam Newton, Dez Bryant, etc. as officers in the military? They can serve out their commitments on NFL rosters without ever doing any of those pesky deployments or operational-type things, but still wear a uniform occasionally and do PR stuff for the military.
PPX and Eric,
The 2 Navy football players awaiting NFL careers got Surface Warfare, right?
It is a shell game to talk about one coach being paid with private funds and how that is superior to one being paid by public. There is very little difference between those two at Navy and none at AF. I noted the differences in policies and how Yokitis got to be Navy’s exception to policy. But he exists, more than 4 years of his five after grad were spent coaching… so can you drop the pious calls for someone to show you a Navy player who spent most of his active duty as a coach?
Bottom line, it is mostly a matter of what you consider “service.” In the Navy, there seems to be a lot of jobs you can point to and say “look at those guys out on a ship taking one for the team.” And there is probably a lot of internal pressure to not let guys duck out on their ship tours.
In the AF, you are either a flyer or not…and either way you spent a few years getting good at your job before you get on a regular deployment schedule. Once you get to that point, there is a lot of pressure to go have your turn avoiding SAFire/IDF/IEDs/etc.
Also, for Zoomies, there was probably a choice made at some point: not to be in a position where they would be pressured to be protecting the high seas for extended periods of time. So I really don’t understand why AF grads should feel bad about not having the Navy’s corporate pressures.
Try to remember the arguments that you made above, and to which I’m trying to respond. The principal objection to Garland’s situation is economic-it’s a waste of money to allow him an early release from active duty (like every qualifying pro athlete candidate since David Robinson) to allow him to participate in NFL. Your argument regarding Chad Hennings is foolish–it actually made less economic sense to release Hennings because the taxpayer investment in him was far greater-by a factor of 10 or more-due to the fact that he had completed pilot training. Anbd yes, the services do need NFL billboards for the services and service academies–that’s why the program exists. If you’ve got something that supports your position that this is an economically wasteful decision for the military, or that the military is not getting its value from this program, I’m all ears.
What I am starting to hear now is a significantly different argument, and one that its proponents can’t win, namely that it is the character of service that somehow makes participants in the program less worthy. This position is a loser from the outset-do you mean that every graduate who is not a combat officer has somehow cheated the taxpayer and is subject to your derision? Does the graduate that goes directly to law school, or medical school, or into criminal investigations, or procurement, or who is assigned as a base services officer represent a waste of the taxpayer money? If not, where do you, in your omniscience, draw the line? What is your basis of knowledge or experience that qualifies you to draw that line better than the services’ leadership? Graduates are assigned all kinds of duties, in all kinds of roles. They are all subject to being thrown into the maelstrom, or assigned rocking chair duty. Your position becomes indefensible when you start trying to parse out who’s service is valuable, and who’s is not.
Rob-
Yep, they’re SWOs as far as I know. And according to people who keep in touch with him, Shun White (one of those with an “NFL career”) is currently off the coast of Libya, not working a stash job in Annapolis.
There’s no “shell game” here. Salaries for civilian coaches come from private funds through the athletic departments of each respective school. Salaries for active duty members (as well as their tuition and training while at a service academy) are paid by taxpayer dollars. Taxpayers should have a reasonable expectation that the money they pay to put kids through a service academy is going to train and develop graduates who will do something other than play or coach football during their active duty service.
You’re missing the point on Yokitis–he was MEDICALLY RETIRED from the Marine Corps due to an injury or illness of some sort, which means he couldn’t go on serving even if he wanted to. Once he was medically retired, he went into coaching. That’s not an exception to policy–that’s just moving on in life after being forced to leave active duty service. His situation is not even remotely similar to USAFA’s three-year coaching tours immediately after graduating.
What do I consider “service”? I don’t have any super-lofty standards that say you have to do combat deployments to count it as service–I just want to see assignment to an operational unit somewhere in the armed forces. I understand everyone won’t or can’t deploy immediately, even if they really want to–I had friends who were assigned to admin or military police or supply MOSs and were stationed at various stateside or overseas bases that don’t deploy frequently. But the key is they’re still off doing jobs somewhere in the supporting establishment of the Navy or Marine Corps, and gaining real-world experience while doing so.
There’s nothing odd about being “pressured to be protecting the high seas”–it’s called a deployment, and the Navy and Marine Corps do them pretty regularly. The “internal pressure to not let guys duck out” is something called a commitment–you know, a legal or moral obligation to do something. It’s not bowing to corporate pressures; it’s doing the things the military is expected to do. I know the Air Force deploys too–I saw plenty of AF personnel in transit to and from Iraq as well as in country while I was there.
Of course it is a shell game. The USNA Athletic Department is not 100% privately funded. A few uniformed members are assigned to the football team as mentors or on some kind of R&R gig for combat service. The taxpayers probably pay some of the maintenance of grounds and facilities. Plus, most of your sources of “private” revenue are military members shuffling some of their taxpayer funded salaries into the athletic dept. I’m sure there are hundreds of small ways USNA’s athletic dept benefits financially from being very closely associated with the USN.
And I didn’t miss the point on Yokitis. I always said I knew he got out on a medical. But your original challenge was as follows:
“If you can find me one single example of a USNA football player spending >50% of his initial five years in a coaching-related position, I’ll FedEx you a case of your beer of choice overnight.” (from your Scout post)
You Sir, have been proved wrong on your challenge, regardless of the policies or circumstances that made you wrong. All you are doing now is moving your original target.
As far as deployments, we are basically agreeing to the same point, but you are trying to use that point to paint Garland’s service as inferior.
Yes, the definition of “deployment” is different in the Navy. Many of your deployments are to non-combat zones. Some of AF’s are too. AF grads decided early on “I don’t want to be pressured to ‘deploy’ to a ship in Ocean XYZ.”
Therefore you cannot compare Ben Garland to Shun White and say “White is serving on a ship but Garland is stateside” and then try to say one is superior to the other. Personally, I would always pick a year long deployment to Helmand over a 6 month deployment to the Pacific Ocean…unless it was on a cruise ship with my wife.
Additionally, Garland might have already completed various flying programs before being ready to go to UPT. Soaring, Jump, Initial Flight Screening or obtained his private pilot license. All of which involve risking your life for your nation.
ChicagoZoomie, that the WCAP supposedly had some congressional approval at some point is meaningless, unless you think that Congress is incapable of wasteful spending. I’d be willing to bet that you don’t believe that. As for Chad Hennings, he had recruiting value because he actually went out into the operational Air Force like service academy graduates are supposed to do. He raised public awareness of the kind of work that the Air Force does on the public’s behalf because he was out in the world doing it. Garland and WCAP athletes have no such experience, and don’t even come close to bringing the same benefit.
Rob, Yokitis isn’t an “exception.” He got a job after he was medically discharged just like anyone who gets a job after they’re discharged. How can you hold the Marine Corps accountable for him if he isn’t in the Marine Corps? We are talking about constructs for [i]active duty[/i] here. Ironically, it is you who cheapens other areas of Air Force service by saying that being a football coach or a PE teacher is no different. Nobody criticizing this boondoggle has done so about non-flying billets in the Air Force. You are defending a position that isn’t being argued.
Rob, taxpayer money only goes towards facilities that are open to all midshipmen. Any facility that is for athletic department use only is privately funded. You don’t know what you are talking about and are relying on supposition to make a point.
And your characterization of donations from military members as semi-public is so laughable that I’m a little bit embarrassed for you.
Rob,
By my math, >50% of 5 years means more than 2.5 years. 6 months at NAPS then 6 months at The Basic School doesn’t exactly equal a long-term coaching position while on active duty.
And again, I wasn’t making any characterization on combat vs. non-combat deployments. Someone who’s assigned to a ship, squadron, or battalion doesn’t have any control over when or where that unit deploys. They just know that at some point they’re probably going somewhere. And I didn’t even criticize stateside service in the least–as I said, some people inevitably get assigned to headquarters units or installations in jobs such as MPs, finance officers, air traffic controllers, public affairs officers, you name it. But they’re still out in the real Navy/Marine Corps, not serving out their obligation at the same place they went to school.
How does private revenue in the form of voluntary donations by active duty service members in any way similar to the use of public dollars to pay coaches? By that logic the DOD is also supporting tattoo parlors and bars, since that’s where my Marines seem to spend a lot of their disposable income.
From what I can tell Chad Hennings didn’t get much in the way of special treatment because of his football skills–he was part of a DOD-wide reduction in forces after the Gulf War in which plenty of pilots and other highly-trained personnel were offered the opportunity to get out (if not just plain shown to the door).
PPX,
Way to muck up the argument when you start to lose it.
Are you disagreeing that the USNA Athletic Department is not 100% privately funded? Does it in any way financially benefit from being closely connected to the USN? What year did USNA’s athletic department go “private”? Is the answer 1845? If not, I would say that logically, it is a financial entity with a majority of facilities that were originally tax-payer funded, and with athletes that are tax payer funded. It is your right to laugh that I’m not a USNA expert, but you can’t refute this logic.
Furthermore, you shouldn’t be embarrassed by me because I’m on my favorite team’s local newspaper talking about the place I got my degree and the service I belong to, and our differences from your service.
When you find me stalking Annapolis area newspapers and making disparaging comments shortly after stories are posted, then you can be embarrassed. Squids being here and repeatedly posting makes you all look like jealous whiners.
Maybe you’re new to the internet, but it’s really not that hard to go to websites where items of general interest to you are being discussed.
So, gentlemen (or ladies, as the case may be)–no evidence whatsoever that the people making the decisions don’t know the economics of their choices. No showing that recent graduates aren’t at least as effective in teaching and motivating their peers, with whom they have so much in common, as more senior officers. Just assumptions and implications, but nothing even remotely factual that disputes the services’ own quantifiable determination that having grads in these programs is immensely useful to the armed forces. You can count on the fingers of one hand the times Hennings’ references on national TV included his airplane or that he enforced the no-fly zone, or that David robinson was an engineer. But the Air Force/Navy reference was there every time. As it will be for Garland, and as it is for Chad Hall, and for Kyle Eckel and as it was for Napoleon McCallum. By the way, go look up Mr. McCallum, and see what he thinks of the Navy’s foolishness (pre David Robinson) in not letting him play and make PR points for Annapolis. http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jan/18/sports/la-sp-crowe18-2010jan18/2
Based on the discussions above, it’s clear that the loudest critics are much more upset at the nature of the service performed, and that THEY are the best judges of what constitutes a proper and worthy use of service academy graduate time and capability. If I knew you better, I’d say some of you were arrogant swabbies. But I don’t, so I won’t.
When you have something to sell that’s factual, rather than just insulting to people who don’t meet whatever odd standard it is that you are using to judge service, I’ll be reading.
To clarify, you think that a service academy graduate going on to an operational unit instead of playing in the NFL is “foolishness?” And you say that MY standards are “odd?”
Do you want to know what’s truly arrogant? Thinking that a taxpayer should be put in his place for daring to criticize those who are making decisions on how our money is spent. You’re damn right I’m the best judge for how my money is spent. Maybe you need to remember YOUR place.
PPX–when the NFL player is worth several times his compensation and education costs in PR and motivates dozens of people to join, then yes, that’s a rational choice, and it’s not odd. Your fixation on the extreme worth of so-called “operational jobs” is an indication of an elitist mentality that will not serve you well on active duty or in life. You should have learned something about teamwork, somewhere. Get some perspective.
And I will put you or anyone else in his place who thinks that the only people who really serve are those with jobs that meet your limited and frankly archaic standards. Every person who puts the uniform on is at some risk, and worthy of support. Ignorant and unsupported opinions about how your tax dollar is spent simply strengthen the case against you. Better to remain silent and thought a fool…well it’s too late for that.
PPX,
For a better place to direct your tax-payer’s anger: please see linked Navy Times story referencing financial abuses at USNA.
“The IG found that the money to pay for these plush parties was often pulled from shadowy corners of the academy’s accounting system. A “slush fund” fueled by corporate football sponsorship dollars, cash from rich benefactors and sometimes plain government money, was frequently spent in ways that were “wasteful and extravagant” or even outright illegal, according to the IG.”
http://www.navytimes.com/news/2010/07/navy_fowler_report_071310w/
Rob,
People were called out in the media for those violations and held accountable for their behavior–what’s your point? No one is holding them up as models of professionalism or fiscal responsibility, or wanting to use them as “billboards” for honorable service.
Psstt….a handful of mids just got booted for using or dealing spice. Want to try to connect that to Garland’s case somehow?
ChicagoZoomie,
Every person who puts on the uniform is at some risk? By that logic the janitors and groundskeepers at USNA are serving too, since they run the risk of a traffic accident while driving to or from work every day. In fact their risk may even be higher than the risks involved in being a PE instructor or a PAO. Should we consider what they do as equal to being in a real military unit?
There’s nothing “archaic” about standards that say someone in the military should, at some point, depart the place they spent four years of college and be assigned to an operational unit or a real-life Army/Navy/AF/USMC base.
There are two main points I get from that story.
1. PPX was talking about his right as a tax-payer to be upset by the way tax-payer funds are spent on AF football related jobs. Navy seems to have a worse problem with using tax-payer funds for football related parties, which has already been proven illegal by the IG. It was kind of a glass house point for squids here piously complaining about the way the AF athletic department is run.
2. Eric said Navy football coaches are paid with private funds and that this is superior to the way AF justifies military coaches on staff. PPX and I had a back and forth debate about whether the Naval Academy Athletic Department was 100% privately funded or whether it is just slightly different from how AF is funded. Now we have an IG report that says Navy spent tax-payer funds on lavish football program parties. So I conclude the Naval Academy Athletic Dept is not 100% privately funded.
ChicagoZoomie, service academies do not exist for PR. They exist to provide the graduates who will form the core of the nation’s career military officers. It is not elitist to believe that it is a waste to spend four years of a service academy education to produce a PE teacher and fringe NFL prospect. You can wrap yourself in the flag and pontificate about teamwork, but it’s nothing but obfuscation. We are talking about PE teachers and football players, not every non-flying job in the Air Force.
Rob, if you weren’t so busy trying to change the subject you would see that the report you think is such a gotcha has nothing to do with the actual athletic department. I actually read the IG report. You clearly have not.
This isn’t about USNA vs. USAFA. This is about the public’s expectations for service academy graduates. I assume that your desperation to change the subject is indicative of your inability to justify Air Force graduates spending their active duty as PE teachers and football coaches.
PPX,
I’m happy to stay on subject and talk about Garland, the main character in the story we are commenting on. My posts today were wrapping up issues we discussed yesterday.
Yesterday you were laughing at my feeble minded understanding of USNA’s athletic department…and how it was embarrassing that I considered the dept to be not completely privately funded. You were wrong and aren’t a big enough man to admit it….instead you are calling it “changing the subject.” I’ll be the bigger man and drop it.
Back to Garland. He obviously wanted to go to pilot training but has a conflicting personal interest with the larger ADSC. I went through the same thing. I had a pilot slot right out of the Academy and ended up turning it down because I wasn’t sure if I wanted to be in the military for 10 years. A few years later, I changed my mind, reapplied and currently serve as a pilot. Instead of going to pilot training right away, I was a support officer stationed in Las Vegas, after a few years, I deployed for large periods of time and had the time of my life. My roommate went through the same thing, turned down his pilot slot and spent a few years doing minority recruiting at the Academy before getting out. So I have personally sympathy and understanding for Garland’s circumstances and I wish him well.
But you don’t want to talk about GARLAND do you? You are very “busy trying to change the subject” to a larger debate about athletic programs, assignment classifications, etc. In the process you have projected a false sense of superiority about the way your service runs their football program and athletic department.
If you want to talk about the Garland, I’ll be happy to continue. But I will ignore further off-topic and hypocritical accusations of impropriety by USAFA.
Rob-
Garland “wanted to be a pilot” but Big AF is forcing him to be a PAO and play football on the side? Every article I’ve read on the subject seems to indicate pretty plainly that he’s making a CHOICE to pursue football rather than the pilot route. Which one is it?
Back to the “slush fund” deal–do you see any Navy fans holding that up as a good example of how to use our taxpayer dollars? No, that story provoked quite a bit of outrage and let to the Supe getting a pretty nasty reprimand from his bosses before being forced into early retirement. People did stuff they shouldn’t have, got caught, and faced the consequences.
What I said was “embarrassing” was your characterization of private donations from military members as public funding. And that IS pretty embarrassing. That you think this way makes any further explanation of how wrong you are about the USNA athletic department pointless, since you clearly wouldn’t understand. Oh, and if you wanted to be the “bigger man and drop it,” you wouldn’t have tried to get the last word. If you want to respond, just do it. Drop the self-congratulatory pretense of being the “bigger man.”
Talking about what Garland is being allowed to do isn’t changing the subject. I’m not sure how it could be more ON the subject.
When OSD shut down Army’s attempt to push Caleb Campbell straight to the NFL, they did so in a memo that said “constructs for ‘active duty’ service should not include arrangements typically unavailable to others in uniform.” So tell me, do anyone other than football players get to spend the majority of their Air Force career as football coaches? Are there any non-athletes that get to spend years as a PE teacher while preparing for the NFL?
Again, this isn’t about one school versus another. This is about remembering the mission of the service academies.
Eric, reread my last post. I agree Garland deciding not to go to pilot training was his personal choice.
“He obviously wanted to go to pilot training but has a conflicting personal interest with the larger ADSC.” Just like I did at the time.
PPX, you Sir have had the last word.
Fare well Seamen.
I’d get tired of defending the indefensible too.
I’m surprised at the reaction to this – didn’t everyone see this coming? The AIr Force of all services has the fewest operational billets, one reason or one recruiting tool that the Air FOrce is able to use to it’s advantage, ie – if you don’t want to go to war – go Air Force. Not saying all who attend AF won’t go to war, because certainly a lot do – but for the most part, grads have much more opportunity to go into ‘jobs/careers’ that will keep them out of harms way; compared to the other services. That is what Garland has decided to do – to opt out of being in an operational billet to one of riding a desk.
All cadets go to the Academy with the expectation of becomming an officer and a leader w/in the military – and they may go with the thought of becoming a pilot, etc – but a lot can change over 4 years. And for Garland – he got bigger, developed a lot on the football field and has the chance to play on Sundays. Good for him. I think there is some criticism/sensitivity in Air FOrce’s slotting a number of their grads in positions such as ‘coach’ vice being in the real air force..and maybe some day they’ll do the same to some of their real smart grads – assigning them positions as ‘professors, ‘ etc – instead of making them take one of fewer AF operational positions.
Best of luck to Ben!
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Most of what I have read here is ignorance. 2nd Lt. Garland happens to currently be my boss in the Public Affairs office on Scott AFB. He is the epitome of an AF officer and has exceeded the expectations that any Senior NCO would ever have for a new young Lt. He is a true leader — one who leads by example and takes care of his people. He is also open to being mentore by experienced SNCOs and does not act like he’s “above” learning from enlisted leadership. Long story short — no one know him like I do. He never talks about the Broncos or trying to get out of his commitment unless someone brings it up. He meets ALL standards — fitness and otherwise. He is an AF LEADER in every sense of the word. Don’t mistake that for a second. As much as I would love the AF to be able to keep a person like this, I can’t help but try and do everything I can to help him reach his dream. He deserves that for the person he is and the work he’s put in to get here.
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